*Ducks Sherie's flying tomatoe*
Mooncloth Bag Pricing
(Allakhazam puts the most common price at 25g ea.)
- I provide all mats = 15g + 8 day min. wait.
- You provide 2 mooncloth, I provide remaining mats = 5g.
- You provide 4 felcloth, I provide remaining mats = 12g + 8 day min. wait.
- You provide 2 mooncloth and all other mats = free
- You provide 4 felcloth and all other mats = 5g + 8 day min. wait.
(Allakhazam puts the most common price at 100g)
- I provide all mats = 65g + min. 16 day wait.
- You provide 4 mooncloth and all other mats = free
- You provide 4 mooncloth and 2 golden pearls, I provide remaining mats = 5g.
- You provide 8 felcloth and 2 golden pearls, I provide remaining mats = 15g + min. 16 day wait.
- Assume each golden pearl provided is worth a 20g credit.
- Ask about other combinations of mats. :)
10 comments:
"tomatoe"
Shades of Dan Quayle...
Is it usually the case that mats cost more than final products?
Looking just at the market for mooncloth bags, it appears the mats are about 10% more than the final produce. Is this true for other items?
Mats for mooncloth bag:
Mooncloth - 15g (x2 = 30g)
Bolt Runecloth - 50s (x4 = 2g)
Rune thread - 20s
Total - about 33g
Mooncloth bag: 30g
I'd expect profit for the guy that had the pattern, has 300 tailoring and puts it together. In other words, I expect the finished mooncloth bag to cost more than the mats.
*puts economist hat on*
What could explain this difference?
1. Substitute commodities (other 16 slot bags) are less costly to produce. This competitive environment pulls the price of mooncloth bags down.
2. As individual mats, items are more viable because they (presumably) can be used in many different recipes. This would suggest that the versatility of the mats is worth at least 2g in the case of mooncloth bags.
3. Mats are harder to sell. There's an implicit transaction cost in having to list all the mats separately at the AH.
4. The time it takes to make mooncloth (4 day cool down?) is priced into the mooncloth but not the bag. A sort of sympathy charge... "Wow, you had to wait 4 days to make this cloth. I'll throw a couple extra gold in there for yah." This sympathy is lost by the time the bag is made. Besides, its just as likely that tailor bought the cloth when making the bag (i.e. they didn't have to endure the cooldown).
(Ok, that last one is more psychology than economics, but hey...)
Why don't tailors just sell the individual mats?
1. Prestige. In addition to gold, tailors are paid in respect/admiration/affection/etc. This additional benefit is not reflected in AH prices.
2. They have incomplete information. They don't know mats would yield them more gold. If that's the case, then you could setup a side market supplying tailors with mats for prices above the AH prices. Buy the mats from the AH and then market to tailors directly. (Question: is there anyway to know what profession someone is by /who or some other mechanism?)
3. Leveling. I don't know the level requirements, but tailors may get a benefit (beyond price) of leveling their tailoring skill.
Anyway, I'm betting #2 is the best explanation for lower price of bags and #1 is the best explanation for why tailors make bags anyway.
Tat, why do you make bags?
I *knew* I could count on you to pick up on this. Here are just a few possibilities - the numbers correspond to your numbers:
---section 1---
1) Yes there are other 16 slot bags. They're pretty rare drops in high end instances. I have one that dropped in Stratholm. I think Cal got one from BRD. Again, these are rare but the do show up in the AH from time to time.
2) I hadn't considered this, but it may be supported by the pricing of items like the Mooncloth Robe I've also listed - 100g for that item *should* turn a profit for the maker, though I've been having a bitch of a time finding golden pearls. I've never seen them at the AH.
3) Seemes unlikely to me...
4) Perhaps. I sure as fuck hate the four day cooldown, but at the same time appreciate it as necessary to the economy.
---section2---
1) BS. No relationship develops between the seller and buyer in WoW outside of sales to people you actually travel with. The AH prevents this.
2) I think this is less common than you think, Will. Check the AH for mooncloth and mooncloth bags at any given time -- there is always far more mooncloth available. I'm accustomed to seeing 10 - 20 listings for mooncloth, and 1-2 listings for mooncloth bags. (No, no way to /who for tradeskill info that I know of.)
3) Cal and I feel this is the big one. Tailoring is far harder to level at the end than alchemy, for example, and mostly because the mats simply aren't plentiful. There's a high value in getting your tradeskill to 300, both real and psychological.
I assume you came up with the price of "Mooncloth bag: 30g" by checking allakhazam? I check the price on these bags in the AH regularly, and on Hyjal, at least, they run 22g - 24g. Mooncloth runs 11g - 13g. I pay 50s ea for runethread, not 20s. (I would probably pay nominally less if I went to UC to buy it.)
Here's another bit to chew on. The value of the mooncloth bag is much higher to the maker than to the buyer.
1) Felcloth is a bitch like whoa to farm. It really is. Unless you run DM E. over and over again, the only place to get it is off the demons in Felwood, and the drop rate is 3 - 4 percent. It takes 2 felcloth to make one mooncloth, and you can only make one mooncloth once every 4 days. After 8 days and all that work, 20g - 30g for the manufactured item seems quite reasonable to me.
Unfortunately...
Let's assume a buyer in the market for a mooncloth bag is already using all 14 slot bags. If they bought them, those 14 slot bags cost them 3g each. (I'll be using allakhazam's "most common price" for this whole post.) A mooncloth bag costs them 30g. That's a 1000% price increase for a 14% capacity increase. If a player had a mooncloth bag and wanted to upgrade to a bottomless bag, at 250g they're paying an 833% price increase for a 12% capacity increase.
I know many players simply refuse to pay for anything larger than a 14 slot bag, and I can sympathize since they will slowly obtain 16 slotters for free doing instance runs. I myself have a small stack of mooncloth I'm saving, and I'm torn on whether I should sell it or use it. I got a deal on the felcloth I'm transmuting, but I still need to make the money back that I paid for it and AH'ing the mooncloth seems like the best way to do it.
Perhaps if blizzard made 16 slot or larger bags *only* obtainable from a tailor (non-drop) the price would adjust to something more reasonable and the market would expand.
Lastly, larger bags don't increase your effectiveness as a player, so paying that kind of money for a convenience item just seems over the top.
BTW - I notice the pattern for bottomless bags has *at best* a .03% chance to drop. LOL
this is just my take about upgrading from 14 slot to a 16. if a bag costs 25~30g to buy i would be buying 2 more slots at 12~15g each! I know having more slots will at the end pay for itself but that seems a long time to wait. so with hunters, where one bag has to be an ammo bag, (and if you spay ammo like wolfsong does then you need to carry a few more stacks), I still find that I don't need to take that much stuff on the road with me.. generally. in places like un'goro it would've been nice to have a few more slots. maybe its completely different in raids and high end instance?
As far as selling things for cheaper than its worth.. I've always thought that people who are active in the AH wants to see their items sold and moved at all cost. if it's an item they can make then they prob wouldn't mind taking a cut in profit, because at the end it will do them no good if it sits in inventory. so, in order to avoid not being able to sell their products they make it cheaper than the next guy's and just take the loss. that way they can get paid something and that's better than nothing. i feel that is why stuff is always cheaper in its final form rather its mats combined.
so after a player decides he needs to upgrade 2 slots at 25~30g, and a tailor not wanting spare bags and mats clogging up inventory space, the price of bags drops lower than its combined mat price.
maybe mooncloth bags price will drop even lower as more people have the pattern for it?
heh, which reminds me, in d2, my bags were always full with charms and pots. ..hm would making pots without a cooldown possibly make the prices of bags go up?
woo, where can i get an economist's hat?
Some good points, Thumb. I'm sure there must be plenty of people making items just to free up bag slots. On the other hand, there are also plenty of folks actually trying to turn a profit. I for one am hoping to some day have an epic mount :) and so am trying to run a little bit of a business. If I were to add up all the money I have spread across my 2 mains and my mule it wouldn't amount to a real impressive sum, but that's because much of it is tied up in mats like felcloth and arcane crystal that will one day yield a profit.
I find the best way to get mats on the cheap is to either get lucky in the AH, or even better hang out in the Org trade channel. You wouldn't believe the volume discounts you can get there!
Other than holding on to some water and 2 or 3 empty slots for upgrade items, I find very little need for large bags in 40-man raids. It's almost the same in 15-man raids. As always, the real consumer of bag space is tradeskilling. It may very well be that buying the next bag slot in your bank is a far better use of your money than buying a 16 slot bag.
I like to save all the "keys" that I aquire as I go through the game, so every key I get is essentially a permanent loss of one slot. By keys I mean items that open doors to instances, or that start events. e.g the UBRS key (which is 4 parts/4 slots until you assemble it) or the ZF mallet.
I think we have the mooncloth bag market nailed... If you had 300 tailoring, would you bother making a bag or would you keep the mats for something else?
Let's just agree to use "most likely price" from allakazam...
Regarding prestige... doesn't the item say "made by char name"?
"this is just my take about upgrading from 14 slot to a 16. if a bag costs 25~30g to buy i would be buying 2 more slots at 12~15g each!"
I didn't even pick up on this, Thumb, but this is the most important part of the equation for buyers... marginal utility, they call it.
Regarding the value of the bag to the maker... I had this intiution, too. I just couldn't figure out why it would be the case (or even what it means). Tat, you seem to be saying that the seller (maker) of the mooncloth bag values it due to the cost of production. The buyer, on the other hand, is only getting two additional bag slots. I think this is only a demonstratation of classic supply/demand. Sellers will only sell above cost. Why go through all the trouble of making/gathering mats, if you're not going to get compensated for it. While, buyers will only pay less than their marginal utility (i.e. 2 extra slots). If 2 extra slots aren't as useful as something else (e.g. that wand they've been eyeing), they'll buy that something else.
In other words, your saying demand is low and costs are high. Thus, the quantity of bags produced and sold is low. You nailed it.
"As far as selling things for cheaper than its worth.. I've always thought that people who are active in the AH wants to see their items sold and moved at all cost. if it's an item they can make then they prob wouldn't mind taking a cut in profit, because at the end it will do them no good if it sits in inventory. so, in order to avoid not being able to sell their products they make it cheaper than the next guy's and just take the loss. that way they can get paid something and that's better than nothing. i feel that is why stuff is always cheaper in its final form rather its mats combined."
I think would just bring the price of these items down... If that price goes below cost, then you'd expect ppl to stop producing/collection those items.
And yet after all this, I still feel it would be a shame if 16+ slot bags lost their rarity.
'N you can bet yoor arse ah'll be makin' mahsef some 16 slot bags. :)
You said that a 1000 economists heard a ring in their ear...
... Adam Smith roll in his grave, etc, etc.
(BTW, let's use http://wow.allakhazam.com's "Most Common" price.)
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